perfidy

A while back, Murdoc had a post about the Liftport Group and its efforts to build a beanstalk. Liftport is researching the technologies that will be essential to the creation of a working geosynchronous elevator once materials science finally develops the requisitely strong materials for the beanstalk’s cable. With the invention of carbon nanotubes, it seems that the unobtanium is becoming, possibly, closer to being obtanium.

There was a spirited discussion in the comments to that post, enlivened by the appearance of one of the people working at Liftport, Brian Dunbar. I thought I had (as I seem to have a positive gift for) left the last comment, but surprisingly, a month later, Brian reappeared
and responded to my post. And it’s interesting stuff.

For your ease in reading, I have reproduced below the relevant earlier parts of the thread, so as to make it intelligible. It’s long, but interesting to see someone who is working for a company that is actually trying to build a beanstalk defending his idea on a blog. Sweet. Brian here was responding to some of the more critical commenters:

Fine - we need and encourage critics.

Note however that there are reasons why the old ideas remain ideas and not working systems. Too expensive, too impractical, not the right time, etc.

We think this could be a reasonable alternative. It is an idea worth exploring. If it doesn't work, then we'll know and can move on. If it does then we've got inexpensive access to space.

Which is the real prize, and why I work there. I don't care if CATS comes from laser launch, mass-produced Virgin Galactic SpaceShip2s or fricking magical swans. I do feel that the species needs a way to get to space that doesn't cost an arm and both legs - this is my contribution to that effort.

But the goal is, in the end, access to space.

posted by Brian - August 6, 2006 08:24 AM

The conversation moved to discussion of two-stage to orbit vehicles, and Dfens made the point that, “If it's a good idea that needs a technological jump before it's feasible, then I wait for that technology to improve and revisit my idea. That's the difference between science fiction and actual engineering.” Brian responded to that:

Point taken. Brief nutshell, here is what we're doing;

We think the only thing that requires a technological jump is the ribbon material. People are working on that, but not for space elevator applications. Practical CNT that an Edwards SE would require will be useful in hundreds of applications - enough so that there is a huge incentive to develop it. We might hope it would be sooner than later. Anything can happen to delay this option, so we accept that potential roadblock and move on.

We can't enter that arena and build an R+D effort to catch up with the established labs - no problem. We're not interested in the material so much as using it.

What we're doing is working on the other bits that will be required for a working space elevator. The lifters, for one, and an early result is the subject of this blog post. Politics and legal issues for another - and those two are essential to master for any project.

You're not wrong - but if things do work out then when the CNT does become available a small group of people will be - with some care and luck - in the right position to take advantage of the situation.

It may _not_ happen - the odds are long. But it just might.

posted by Brian - August 7, 2006 01:48 AM

This, I think, is one of the more interesting features of the Liftport project. The way technology moves now, you can actually more or less plan that someone will, in fact, invent what you need – so long as what you need is broadly useful. Finally, we get to the important part, where I comment. I said:

Me, I vote for fricking magical swans.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - at least here - is that this isn't an either-or proposition. Whether it is a two stage to orbit (Dfens' quarter century old idea, or Rutan's next project, take your pick) a big dumb rocket, Orion nuclear pulse or indeed fricking magical swans, cheap access to space is a *prerequisite* for Brian's magical beanstalk. No matter how stupendously advanced the eventual material, no one has yet (that I'm aware of) come with an idea for a self-deploying beanstalk. We will have to get into space to build it. And that means getting beyond our primitive space technology.

Likely, there will be a great need for testing of the beanstalk concept elsewhere before anyone allows one to be built here on earth. Tethers, rotovators, maybe a lunar beanstalk would likely be necessary (for legal/ safety/ bureaucratic/ product liability reasons. People would want to see that a beanstalk works, and continues to work for a significant period of time before allowing a 100000km carbon nanotube whip to be placed over their heads.

For those reasons, cheap space access is even more necessary for a beanstalk. A beanstalk will be a like a railroad - people will have had to already gone ahead and prepared the way before it can be built. But once built, it will make going to space infinitely cheaper. First though, we've got to make it at least reasonably cheap.

All that aside, I am all for Brian and his comrades spending as much money as they can get their grubby hands on to do the research needed so that when the time comes we will have that beanstalk.

posted by buckethead - August 8, 2006 10:50 AM

I told you all of that, so I could tell you this. Brian responded to my comment:

And that means getting beyond our primitive space technology.

Maybe not.

In terms of material needed we can - we think - get the job done with six to eight Delta IV launches, plus on-orbit assembly.

The last is tricky - it's not like anyone has done this before ... unless you count ISS and MIR. We'll need a place for the assemblers to work and live. Again, it's a new application of somewhat established concepts. But it's been done before.

This is not to poo-poo the difficulty involved, merely to note that it's possible with technology we have now.

People would want to see that a beanstalk works, and continues to work for a significant period of time before allowing a 100000km carbon nanotube whip to be placed over their heads.

Wrong imagery. Any forces that would impart enough energy to play crack-the-whip will shred the material. The stuff is going to be strong, but that level of strong it ain't.

A break? Stuff that is below the break will come down. Stuff above goes up and might be controllable in it's altitude by moving the cars up and down.

The stuff coming down? It's light - kg's per kilometer. It's messy and there are (maybe) some long-term implications if we don't police up the stuff. And if the break is way up there and we have thousands of kilometers coming down? The bits that survive the shock of the breakup will burn on re-entry.

Which is not to make light of any of this - we've got studying to do before we can say with assurance 'yes we can do this' but some basic physics and engineering dictate that a whip hovering over our heads it's not going to be.

More seriously and of longer-term impact - we've got to live here too. We're working hard not to build something that could wrack the planet. Many eye-balls help - and I hope you and other bloggers like you will keep an eye on us and keep us honest.

Enron I don't want to be.

I think that six to eight launches seems optimistic – but that is besides the point. We’ll need a lot of experience in real space construction before this becomes feasible. More to the point, we’ll need a lot more experience with tethers and other long, stringy objects and how they behave in freefall conditions. As I recall, the one time that NASA attempted a tether experiment, the cable got rather tangled. Unspooling a cable the length of a beanstalk will pose significant engineering challenges all by itself. Don’t get me wrong – as any longtime reader of this blog will know, I am a huge space nut. I wrote a twenty page essay on space strategy, as a ferinstance.

Brian knocks me on my space whip imagery. And while I know, and he knows, that a break in a beanstalk would not result in a crack the whip scenario, you can be damn sure that luddites and other undesirables will use exactly that image. The fall of a beanstalk would nevertheless be a significant event, and could be a good deal more damaging than just having a plane or rocket fall on your head.

The real point is, I don’t think we’ll get a beanstalk before we’ve solved, at least to a great degree, the problem of cheap access to space. It gets to the whole bootstrap paradox with space exploration – once you’re there, things become easy. But to get there, things need to get easy.

The potential of the technologies that Brian’s company is researching right now are enormous, and extend far beyond use in a Earth beanstalk. Beanstalks on other worlds will make all that stuff currently trapped at the bottom of deep gravity wells accessible. Rotovators have the further possibility of reducing the cost of travel even between worlds – a network of spinning tethers in free space could play catch with payloads throughout the solar system – some like to pitch and some like to catch. No need for messy and mass-costly rockets, just load on the midlle of a flinger, and lower yourself to the tip, and let centrifugal force fling you toward your destination. A couple of course corrections, and then get caught by another flinger, crank down to the middle, and you’re there. If a beanstalk can be made compact enough to be carried aloft in six or eight Delta IV launches, we could without too much difficulty ship ready-made beanstalks to all the interesting parts of the solar system ahead of any large scale manned exploration missions.

That is the wonderful thing about thinking about space exploration – the possibilities are so entirely open.

CNN has a story about injecting children with growth hormone. For their own good.

The video is brief, but compelling. Parents, seeking the best for their sons, look to chemistry to grow their small children. Opponents say it's wrong for a variety of reasons you might guess without watching; a diminutive adult says he'd do it even now if he could because being small (5'3" in his case) just sucks so bad.

I guess the story resonated with me as a new father, who's still settling into the role of example-setter and role model. If my son seemed to be tracking toward tiny, would I turn to hormones to grow him? Would the pain and possible side-effects, not to mention gambling that the treatment's completely ineffective, outweigh a small height gain?

Even if I could get insurance to cover it- as the parents profiled did, which seems just this side of miraculous- I don't think I would.

Those parents' ultimate concern is for their sons' self-esteem, allowing for a well-adjusted adult and one that, as a man who fell within "normal" height range, would be that much less challenged in the quest for jobs, careers, and chicks. Their contention is that short men are more challenged, more limited, than "tall" men, and due to no fault of their own.

I think though that self esteem is more rightly rooted in achievement than physical stature. A guy who's 6'4 but spends his days collecting empty cans is not a winner. A man who's 5'6 and a blackbelt in tae-kwon-do is a winner. I'm 6' even, mebbe 6'1 in boots; I've known tons of men taller than me, and tons shorter than me. And with very few exceptions, I've worked for the ones shorter than me. And I'm not exactly setting the world on fire with my scary finances and swinging career possibilities. At the end of the day, I find some satisfaction in writing projects or other activities that have nothing to do with my job, my family, or, of all things, my height. It's those sorts of things, challenges that I've overcome, that allow me to look men in the eye. It has nothing to do with my physical stature. And I try to block out the stuff that I've utterly failed at.

One point that was overlooked in the CNN piece was that the taller you get, the harder alot of mundane tasks become. Again, I have to apply my own experiences, in this cae with continual back pain. Every so often, if I'm not very careful with my body mechanics, it can cause excruciating pain for days, if not weeks- we're talking painkillers for 3 meals a day.

And it's as someone who must be so careful with how he moves that I realize how much of our world is built for people who are about 5'7. See how far you have to bend over to do anything in the bathroom- lift the seat, flush, reach soap or anything else on the sink, turn faucets, wash your hands, take a shower- a dozen little things we do that are perfectly normal and routine but tough for a bigger person trying to keep his back straight. I joke about raising everything about 3" once I'm in charge, just so I can reach it without having to squat. Seriously, a typical bathroom sink barely comes up to about my crotch. Picking something up off the floor can be an adventure in pain management. Cars that sit 2" off the ground- which these days seems like all of them- are completely out of the question; folding myself into a sporty car is unthinkable. And let me emphasize that I'm hardly Shaq, here.

All of which just points out that being an average-sized man is not so flipping terrific either.

Look, people get gigs for alot reasons- talent, effort, luck, nepotism- but I am skeptical that someone ever got a job because he was tall. Money I think works similarly; I've never gotten a check due to my height. And chicks? Hey, different women go for different men. But most of all, chicks dig winners- short or tall.

I think the Li'lest Lethal will probably end up about my height, as his mother's about 5'8/9 herself, but I'm certainly not going to encourage him to let his physical dimensions- whatever they may be later- to be the basis for his self worth. I hope that if I can encourage, support, and guide my son toward achieving goals that are important to him, he can be a big winner in the end- even if he's not big.

Ministry Crony EDog informs me that he will be honoring our beloved Perfidy in his blogday post. At the very same moment, he also, accidently, let me know that there is such a thing as blogday. With some careful, cautious research - namely going to blogday.com - I have teased out the following information:

• Blogday is one of those skirting-the-edge-of-insipid-happy-happy-joy-joy thingies.
• On Blog Day, you mention, and I presume link to, five blogs that you haven't before, or maybe not very frequently, and that hopefully aren't on your blogroll.
• The targets of your linkage should be informed of their unwilling participation.

Personally, that last seems to take some of the fun out of the whole exercise. Be that as it may. I have, as it happens, approximately five new blogs that I have been reading lately that I have not linked (no surprise there, I forget to link everyone) and which, as an added bonus, have a theme.

So here, for your reading pleasure, five science fiction writer blogs:

• First on the list is the one I have been reading longest. Charlie's Diary is the blog home of author Charles Stross, who just recently failed to win a Hugo. Happily, the novel that he thought deserved it won, so I guess that's something. Stross is, perhaps, my favorite writer of the moment. While he missed the opportunity to have the sort of influence on a young boy that Heinlein did for me, through his poor choice of birthday, he is the one whose books are stretching my brain right now. For some years, the singularity was the elephant in the room that is science fiction. People avoided talking about it, but nevertheless, its bulk affected the habits and seating arrangements. One could argue that much of the current wave of alternate sf is a reaction to the challenge presented by the singularity - how do you write about something that is by definition impossible to foresee? Stross is one of the relative few sf writers that has written directly at the singularity, and the results are impressive. Oh, and his blog's fun, too.
• Our next selection is Angel Station, the blog home of author Walter Jon Williams. According to his profile, he likes writing, game designing, kenpo, scuba diving, fantasy Iron Chef and long walks on the beach. He also has had a fascinating continuing series on his trip to Turkey that is well worth the reading. His novel Voice of the Whirlwind is one of my all-time favorites.
• Next in line we find Whatever, the blog of another author who failed to get a Hugo the other day, John Scalzi. (He did get the Campbell Award, so don’t cry for him.) Scalzi and out next contestant have had a running battle over the fate of the planet Pluto, which was entertaining if futile, and ultimately moot. Part of those shenanigans can be found here. Scalzi is a fun writer – I’ve read his two published novels, and they’re riproaring old school fun. You can find one of his novels, Agent to the Stars, for free on his website. It’s a great read, if uncannily similar to EDog’s NaNoWriMo novel, The Milkman.
• Pluto-hayta Scott Westerfeld has an entertaining blog, and one of these days real soon, now I’m going to read some of his books.
• Finally, we have Cheeseburger Gothic, the blog of Australian author John Birmingham. He has written a three book trilogy called the Axis of Time, where in a multinational task force from the year 2021 gets whipped back into the middle of the Battle of Midway, thereby causing a little confusion. I have read the first two, and have gone so far as to order the third from an Australian bookseller. Yes, I am paying an extra $15 in shipping just to avoid waiting til the books January US release. The story is fascinating, really. All the guns and ‘splosians and whatnot you could ask for, but also insightful bits about how race and gender iontegrated post modern warriors from the future would get along with the white bread mainstream society of the forties. Also, the enemies are clever, but still possessed of their tragic flaws. Well done stuff.

[wik] Of course, I would be remiss, and nearly was, in failing to mention that the hombre who started all this, EDog, is himself a science fiction author, though as yet unfairly and nigh on to tragically unpublished. You can see his stuff here, and if you email him and ask nicely he'll probably send you a copy of some of his stuff. I highly recommend The Milkman, mentioned above.

You scored as Serenity (Firefly).

You like to live your own way and don't enjoy when anyone but a friend tries to tell you should do different. Now if only the Reavers would quit trying to skin you.

Speaking of mild embarrassment, I'm passingly familiar with something like half of the specific alleged cultural icons on the list above. So there's that. I await the assistance of my fellow Ministers in analyzing what these results mean. At their extreme leisure, of course. First pass, though, my pictorial montage makes me seem a Buckethead clone, of sorts.

[wik] HTML, as a markup language, rivals grunting and farting for clearly enunciated communication.

This edition of Forgotten Punchline Thursday has been made possible by a grant from the Society for Creative Negation. By pushing the boundaries of how humans conceive of, express, and contend with the word “no”, the Society furthers humankind’s understanding of crushing disappointment.

The Ministry also thanks Cthulhu’s Own-brand Mandible Wax and Cavity Sheen for their generosity. To lend an unearthly glow to your Earth-bound minions, trust Cthulhu’s Own.

Forthwith, today’s Forgotten Punchline:

“Ugnnh! Ughnnh! Ugnhh!”

Seemingly this pic was published by Stormfront Photo Services- the future will have no black people, but it will have one extra hot chick for every three Aryans.

You scored as Andromeda Ascendant (Andromeda).

The universe around you in complete anarchy, but you know just how to handle it. You have a clear head no matter how dire the situation around you may be and people have a tendency to come to you for help. Now if only the Magog would quit trying to lay eggs in your stomach.

I haven't seen about half of these, including Andromeda, whose crew I most represent. I tried once, but it felt like that old Buck Rogers episode where Buck and Wilma go back in time to fight...no, wait, it was the one where like Flash Gordon goes into the future, and pilots a fighter in Wilma's attack wing, and...with Buck...fight...fuck it, I don't remember now, but it was shitty.

"Brothels take the sting out of pump prices"

When you see a headline like that, you almost don't care what the story actually says. In Australia, it seems, hookers do have a heart of gold.

Today, we are blessed with the opportunity to determine, through the magic of the interweb, what science fiction crew we most closely resemble. I found this quiz at the fine webpage of NDR, who normally doesn't stoop to this sort of thing, being more concerned with the abstract and theoretical, even ethereal realms of deep history. It is, however, a perfect match for our idiom of hard-charging idiocy and spastic goofiness.

Sadly, the link was truncated over at The Rhine River, and I was forced to google a replacement link, which I found at No Longer the World's Slowest Blog. Being the kind of guy I am, I volunteered to be the guinea pig for this particular test. As I expected, the results were flattering:

You scored as Serenity (Firefly).

You like to live your own way and don't enjoy when anyone but a friend tries to tell you should do different. Now if only the Reavers would quit trying to skin you.

I have never seen the TV show, but I did greatly enjoy the movie. So much, in fact, that I bought it.

Reminiscent of a Ministry favorite, Chuck Norris Facts, we find Bruce Scheier Facts. Security guru Bruce Schneier has a large rep in the security and cryptography community, much like Chuck Norris' reputation in the violence community. What by right should have been a lame pastiche of something wonderful, is in fact itself wonderful. Here is a sampling:

Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Most people use passwords. Some people use passphrases. Bruce Schneier uses an epic passpoem, detailing the life and works of seven mythical Norse heroes.

Bruce Schneier doesn't need steganography to hide data in innocent-looking files. He just pounds it in with his fist.

Bruce Schneier once found three distinct natural number divisors of a prime number.

Bruce Schneier doesn't need to hide data with steganography - data hides from Bruce Schneier

Amazing, really. They have captured the tone of the Chuck Norris Fact perfectly, even while using words like steganography that no Chuck Norris fan would understand. Read 'em all.

Thanks to Mark at Kaedrin Weblog for the link, and the link.

Never one to run from free and easy content, allow me to piggyback on Buckethead and Thoughts, Ideas and Wildfires spiffy little book thingum. Oh, don't worry about Buckethead; he has the grit, gristle, and shoulders to heave even my girthy girthness about freely.

There are several books near to hand as I type, all of which seem generally the same distance from me. Well ok the dictionary is closest, but it's a little lean on complete sentences (in case anyone really needs to know though, the 5th entry on page 123 is "bachelorette"). There are 3 or 4 books that are also arguably closest, but they are either reference-y or very specific to my job, so I'm declaring them out of bounds.

So let's take the first and last books from this small row, a row that exists about 30" off the back of my seat:

Shah claimed that Sufism was a form of universal wisdom and not Islamic, since it existed from before the historical development of Islam. It was not static in nature and could not be understood by studying past manifestations and methods of old masters. It needed to be constantly redefined for new circumstances and new environments.

That's from that cozy old fireside favorite, Islamic Thought in the Twentieth Century, edited by Suha Taji-Farouki and Basheer M. Nafi.

At the other end of the row comes:

Almost everyone who cared about privacy had been focusing on federal surveillance initiatives. John Poindexter's Total Information Awareness program was target number one. But even Poindexter, who had seen a demonstration of the Matrix, condemned the project, in part because of Asher's involvement.

That's from No Place to Hide by Robert O'Harrow Jr.

I've not read either of them, by the way, beyond the introduction or early chapters. That's why they're on my shelf, and not resting comfortably back in the library.